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bigspin
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Quote: Originally posted by KozeOne  | I don't own any at all.
Fair sure my Grandma owns/owned a decent amount of Telstra shares that she was offered when she started work there many a year ago - they might be
worth a mint now.
she'll outlive the whole family though, stubborn old woman. |
She would need an absolute truck load..
I have about 10k in shares for a rainy day.
www.bigspin.com.au
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Mackula
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Mined his own business?
Not sure whether or not to get some, or do something else with loose cash.
[Edited on 28-5-2012 by Mackula]
D O T H E M A T H
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723
Deadly from set pieces..
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i had a manage fund/share thing that i pulled out of about 4 years ago just before the crash...i had my money invested for about 6 years....it made me
a few fat stacks..
Est: 2-5-2006
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IvyBridge
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| Quote: Originally posted by 723 | | i had a manage fund/share thing that i pulled out of about 4 years ago just before the crash...i had my money invested for about 6 years....it made me
a few fat stacks.. |
Was it luck or are you some sort of prophet?
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Mackula
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^ he's a true profit by the sound of things.
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723
Deadly from set pieces..
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haha it was all luck...needed them money to buy a new crystal ball...
Est: 2-5-2006
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Thunda
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Stay away from Hastie shares....cunts
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pantrydweller
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| Quote: Originally posted by reepz | | shares are a rigjob. i thought that was obvious to everyone by now. i mean look at the recent facebook float.... a hand select few made millions
whilst small investors got done out of millions collectively because systems got overbooked and shut down ... its the same as superannuation. i mean
the biggest fund managers have been caught already. Bankers Trust was caught in USA selectively selling shares at huge profits for it's wealthier
customers, whilst booking in all the losses for small superannuants. this was a proven case faught out in the courts there. its public knowledge. now
companys like BT hold onto billions of dollars for small investors and they got free reign over how they throw shares around. they can indepenently
cause share prices to move up and down daily just by the volume of their trades. small investors always loose out or get the shit end of the stick. i
would only invest in shares if i had inside knowledge of an industry or company. big profits can be made at the right time... but on the whole i
wouldn't be a passive shareholder who just follows the trends. |
Oi dickflop, mark zuckerberg himself lost 3.2billion of his personal wealth on those shares.
I could watch a silverback gorilla snatch a great white shark out of the water and throw it like a spear through the side of a rampaging bull elephant
and I'd still think, Well, that was manly, but it wasn't Predator manly.
"Left hand cemetary, right hand fish and chips" - Mark Hunt
Go cry in your cornflakes.
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pantrydweller
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Ps. reepz, insider trading is illegal. 
I could watch a silverback gorilla snatch a great white shark out of the water and throw it like a spear through the side of a rampaging bull elephant
and I'd still think, Well, that was manly, but it wasn't Predator manly.
"Left hand cemetary, right hand fish and chips" - Mark Hunt
Go cry in your cornflakes.
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BLUGDER
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Just on the Facebook IPO, firstly, anyone who invested in the float needs their fucking head read.
Secondly, anyone taking legal action against the investment banks who were bookrunners in the IPO deserve to have lost their money. The below is
pretty important reading for anyone investing in an IPO. Things like Telstra, and QR are good examples of IPOs where people need to make sure they
understand the logistics of these transactions, who the major actors are (investment banks and brokers) and how they are incentivised to perform.
| Quote: | In an IPO an investment bank takes a fee from a business to place that stock in financial markets.
Or, more precisely, they take a fee from a business to sell part of that business.
Their customer is the company doing an IPO and they have a legal and moral obligation to get the highest price for the company they are selling. No
more. No less.
However investment bankers have, as a practical matter, a desire to expand and improve their franchise. Their franchise consists of a huge number of
buy-side investors (some retail, some institutional) who will buy from them whatever they sell so long as it comes in a prospectus.
Investment bankers expand that franchise by making sure the things sold in a prospectus have excess demand. If they can sell for $38 they chose to
sell for $33 to guarantee a stag. Every time they do so they build their own franchise as an investment bank at a cost to the client to whom they owe
a legal and moral duty and who is paying them fees.
The buy-side customers of investment banks have got used to playing in this little game of theft. We – as buy-siders – like to be able to buy IPOs
and have instant stag profits. Indeed in the 1990s the game of giving favours to investment banks in exchange for instant stag profits became the way
business was done on Wall Street.
The moral corruption of investment banks not only became accepted but we redefined morality around what investment banks did rather than what they
should do. We though the process of systematically ripping off the sellers of IPOs in order to build the buy-side franchise of the investment bank was
right-and-proper.
It is not right-and-proper and it never was right-and-proper.
The investment bank owes a duty to the seller of the IPO and that is all. Whining fools who complain otherwise have allowed their own
greed to distort their morality until they have become gebbeths. Jeff Matthews argues it was their foolishness that cost them money. I disagree. The
idea that Wall Street has an obligation to them (thus guaranteeing stag profits) cost them money. And that idea came from their complacent immorality
- a complacent immorality pervasive on Wall Street.
But not only have people with hurt hip-pockets complained about the Facebook IPO their supplicants in the press have been sucked into supporting the
buyers same self-interested immorality. The Wall Street Journal (a magazine captured by Wall Street not Silicon Valley) derides Michael Grimes (the
Morgan Stanley Banker) for not standing up to David Ebersman (Facebook's CFO) and allowing Facebook to sell too many shares at too high a price. This
is tits-up-backward. David Ebersman in this context is the client. He paid the fees. Michael Grimes had a duty to act in Ebersman's interest. Ebersman
wanted to sell more shares at a higher price. Michael Grimes and Morgan Stanley obliged even at the cost to their own franchise.
And for that he is being pilloried in the press.
What we have here is an investment banker acting ethically. And the whole financial press is a twitter about it.
And the SEC is investigating.
No ethical behaviour goes unpunished in America. |
You can shit on all you want about corporate greed and blahblahblahblah, the point he makes is 100% accurate.
One last thing, don't invest in something you don't understand. Unless you know a business backwards, its prospects and its broader market situation,
don't invest in it.
If you do, don't look to anyone else to blame.
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Mackula
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nothing in this thread has made me want to jump off and grab some shares on the double.
interesting nonetheless. 
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BLUGDER
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also, John_from_Accounts the dodgy old cunt wasn't too far off the mark with his prediction in 2010:
| Quote: Originally posted by John_from_Accounts | Sqwire,
Re market timing
It's pretty difficult to say. My personal view is that the next 2-5 years will not show the same sorts of returns we've come to expect from shares.
ie: below is the chart of a fund which mirrors the ASX top 200.
The red line is an approximate trend of the growth in the lead up to the gfc.
The green line represents my view for the future
There are two things you can do to get higher returns in the short term.
Try and pick winners within the Australian market. The smart money has slowed flows into large cap stocks (the banks, bhp, rio, woolworths, telstra
etc - due to the fact that they are all mature companies, ie the bulk of their growth is behind them), and started flowing into small and micro cap
securities which are more likely to exhibit higher growth profiles. These sorts of companies include exploratory mining stocks, and speculative
biotech securities.
Keep an eye on trading volume (available at ASX.com.au), institutional investors are a dead give away, because when they take a position in a small
cap stock, they will spike the volume traded in it. Insto investors generally hold upto 60 small caps though, so they have the ability to hedge their
bets.
Scour round for some mining, IT, biotech and ESG journals for market-specific information.
The other option is to plug your cash into emerging market securities where the growth profile is the same across the whole economy. It's not really
worth doing it with small investment amounts due to transaction costs, but there are some managed funds that will give you exposure.
Cheers,
John |
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Jim
An 'orrible cunt
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| Quote: Originally posted by gps | You can find you sharemarket game here > http://www.asx.com.au/
For real though, saying small investors can't make shit is bullshit.
As of the past 10 months or so, yeah, its hard.
I just use the theory that for every action, there's a reaction.
One sector suffers, another boosts.
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Of course small investors can make money. The thing is, some people look at the stock market as this magical get rich quick scheme where they buy
something for peanuts, sell it 3 months later and live like kings.
The reality is that this isn't really possible - it'll probably only happen if you buy low and then somehow the value shoots up rapidly. Of course,
this scenario is most likely if you know something most don't - hence why insider trading is illegal. I believe it's also why companies are required
to announce things like earnings forecasts, so the market can determine how likely they are to be profitable for the coming term.
For small investors, making any decent coin requires a long term ownership of the share. This is usually from the sale of the shares after any number
of months/years as dividends are usually peanuts and most investors prefer that money put back into the company.
If you have a superannuation account, then you have shares by proxy. As a long term investment, superannuation fund managers will usually invest in
safe on-going companies with good potential for growth. Of course, when the entire market goes to shit, people who've had their super almost come to
maturity lose money since what their shares sell for is less than they'd have expected.
A shares portfolio is really just one part of a wealth creation strategy really.
You need to diversify your bonds, nigga.
[Edited on 29-5-2012 by Jim]
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Mackula
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mmmmm, wealth creation strategy. sounds deep.
what other 'seek and destroy' missions would you suggest, other than shares?
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elementary
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I know someone you should talk to 
http://soundcloud.com/sound-smugglaz
http://soundsmugglaz.bandcamp.com/
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gps
PureBred
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Jim, your post was the very definition of level headed. The ASX is not the TAB.
| Quote: Originally posted by Mackula | mmmmm, wealth creation strategy. sounds deep.
what other 'seek and destroy' missions would you suggest, other than shares? |
Domain names. But that's another thread.
There are CFDs, Currency, bonds, futures & options etc, if that is what you were referring to. Again all the info is on the asx website.
REITS (Real Estate Investment Funds) are something that's a viable option for the most of us who cannot afford to invest in property on our own.
Although a lot of literature on the net would tell you otherwise. They can be the easiest to manipulate and taketh your money.
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Mackula
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^ do you have a 'car parking space' in your folio?
i was thinking about a few of those in the city last year... sounds stupid, but they offer a pretty good return if you pick the right ones.
D O T H E M A T H
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gps
PureBred
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Haha nah, I dont think they're any good unless you use it yourself, the money being asked for them would be better off in a term deposit.
I did see one on the market in paddington that had amenities though... Just sayin'
Subdivide and rent!
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gps
PureBred
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jobe | I trade every now and then. It is fun. I make money. I lose money. I wank.
Things I have learnt (which may be wrong):
- Think seriously about how much you want to start with. The minimum initial buy is like $500 worth of a stock, and with brokerage at around 20 each
to buy and sell, that means the stock has to increase by 8% just for you to break even. Plus you might have to pay half of the profit of the sale as
capital gains tax. If you're wanting to do short term trades then it's pretty difficult.
- Depending on how seriously you're getting into it, don't expect much of a return (if any) if you put less than 10k into it.
- When you start it's tempting to buy everything. Like "oh shit that dropped 3% but it's a good stock I need to buy that". Chances are you'll fuck up
at the start so ease yourself into it. I fucked up by putting in nearly all of my share cash at once. That "once" just happened to be like a month
before the GFC. Portfolio sank like 40-50% in a year.
- If you're doing low volume (like under a few k) then blue chips will almost never pay off in the short term. They're mostly there for longterm gains
and dividend yield.
- Read as much analysis from brokers as you can before buying something. Broker analysis is great but you're paying for it. Find free shit.
- Buy low sell high is a good strategy. As is hedging. And not just individual stocks, sometimes a whole index can be undervalued.
- At the moment one of the main times I buy is when a stock gets punished harshly for some reason. ie I got some WPL because Shell (I think) sold a
large wad of shares and sank the price. But there's nothing wrong with the underlying business.
- A good rule is that if you don't understand how the business is making money then avoid it.
- Also, don't be afraid to sell if the share is tanking. It can be hard to take a 10% loss on a trade, but that's a lot better than a 40% loss.
- It's difficult to get into the market now and make money because there's still a lot of volatility around. I share John's call that we're only going
to see smallish gains from the market for the next few years. But, as always, there will be ways to make money. But personally I'm not buying much. I
have mostly ASX200s hammering out tiny gains/going nowhere/paying dividends, a few stocks that I'm hoping will receive takeover bids, and a few that I
still have from the GFC days that are nearly worthless that I'm holding on to mostly to take a capital loss when I cash something else in.
- Be wary as fuck of dividend reinvestment programs. If you have smallish holdings of a couple of k or less then they're just annoying. Think about
it, don't just tick the box.
- Share Purchase Plans can be a GREAT way of making money with little risk. Keep an eye out for them.
- Most importantly: don't put money in the market if you can't afford to lose it. Don't see it as a good way to make money because you can and
probably will lose. |
If only Jobe was still around, he could explain why a dividend reinvestment plan was a no go.
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reepz
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| Quote: Originally posted by pantrydweller | | Quote: Originally posted by reepz | | shares are a rigjob. i thought that was obvious to everyone by now. i mean look at the recent facebook float.... a hand select few made millions
whilst small investors got done out of millions collectively because systems got overbooked and shut down ... its the same as superannuation. i mean
the biggest fund managers have been caught already. Bankers Trust was caught in USA selectively selling shares at huge profits for it's wealthier
customers, whilst booking in all the losses for small superannuants. this was a proven case faught out in the courts there. its public knowledge. now
companys like BT hold onto billions of dollars for small investors and they got free reign over how they throw shares around. they can indepenently
cause share prices to move up and down daily just by the volume of their trades. small investors always loose out or get the shit end of the stick. i
would only invest in shares if i had inside knowledge of an industry or company. big profits can be made at the right time... but on the whole i
wouldn't be a passive shareholder who just follows the trends. |
Oi dickflop, mark zuckerberg himself lost 3.2billion of his personal wealth on those shares. |
yeah doubt it ... before the float Zucks was not worth $19billion he was prolly worth $200 mill tops, facebook would have had a paper value which
wasn't materialised. now it has a bonafide value based on it's shareprice WHICH was overpriced anyways it seems, so zucks picked up a premium for
himself if anything. In any case i am sure zucks lacked the finance nouse to understand the mechanics/strategy of an IPO, the bankers would have
milked him silly and then controlled the whole process. zucks would have just trusted the bankers and they would have made the most of that naivity.
it's usually the bankers who rort everyone in society, they plot scheme canive cheat lie steal and de-democratise everything they've ever touched.
on another note- yeah share ownership and trading can be very profitable- provided you know what you're doing. BUT it can take 20 years to truly know
markets tho, there is no 2 year course that is gonna teach you much, its all down to experience. you're basically investing in every conceivable
business and sector so you have to learn the inter relationships between all those sectors- for example what happens to the price of electronics if
there's an explosion at brazils biggest copper mine, how will that then affect the shareprice of harvey normans or myers? so if you wanna get into
shares do it asap, just go to asx.com website get an account and set up dummy portfolios.
personally, times have changed significantly since the greed is good 80's era where everyone made money in shares. globalisation has introduced new
investment classes which are insidious and usually grasping at straws but which produce bona fide results. for example in the near future you can make
a fortune in forestry and carbon offset investments, water/ aquifier and food supply companys which are slowly monopolising the essentials of life
actually make great investments.... then you got companys with military links... again usually great investments but hardly ethical. but then
investing is rarely ethical at its core anyway. depending what your beliefs are.
if you arent an investment expert- i'd advise one thing only.
it is guaranteed !!!
when you turn 18, you get a job... you save ALL your money till you have $50k saved up, then you buy a small unit. You rent that unit out and after a
few years you re-finance it. you use the extra equity and income from the mortgage and property respectively to then buy a second unit which you also
rent out. now you got two mortgages two units and 3 income sources. by age 25..
fast forward to age 50.... if you stuck to the plan you would have at least 10 propertys, if you were clever- you'd have 30. i've known people who
have 70 properties which they built from zero, one guy fought in ww2 came back with one suitcase to his name. he started working and saving. now he is
pushing 90yo lives in a 15mill waterfront and owns another 100 homes. he also trades the odd shares and options, but his portfolio was all property
and it survived every oil shock tech crash and financial crisis.
if you're happy and you know it gimme your watch
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Jim
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Jobe dropping mad knowledge.
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Mackula
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| Quote: Originally posted by reepz | but his portfolio was all property and it survived every oil shock tech crash and financial crisis.
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lucky, that after said chap came back from WW2, there hasn't been another war directly attacking us, otherwise his 100+ properties, and his 15M
waterfront home would be worthless my friend.
shit is not immune to being devalued, like everybody thinks. it just takes a direct conflict or catastrophe.
we have been lucky the last 70 years, but do i think we will continue with this golden streak for another 70? no.
good banter lads and ladies.
D O T H E M A T H
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Jim
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| Quote: Originally posted by reepz |
when you turn 18, you get a job... you save ALL your money till you have $50k saved up, then you buy a small unit. You rent that unit out and after a
few years you re-finance it. you use the extra equity and income from the mortgage and property respectively to then buy a second unit which you also
rent out. now you got two mortgages two units and 3 income sources. by age 25..
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Great in theory, but how many 18 year olds do you know that would have the discipline to do that?
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one-inch-punch
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See also: bank account.
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gps
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Just puttin it out there: GMY
Floated last week. Putting in some consideration, no Divs ATM though.
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